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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 6, 2008 10:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

Cliff, I'm of the mind that they are very found of the Brent years particularly 89-90. Seems so with respect to vault releases ( Dozen etc. ). I truly think they meant what they say ( Jerry included )about refining their sound and getting it close to what they had in mind. It's like the Steely Dan syndrome I guess. Fagen favors Gaucho ( my least favorite of the original Dan albums ) and AJA while most fans like me would rather hear stuff off Pretzel Logic etc.

Having said all this I have to respectfully say
1) I agree that particular 70 run is far superior
2) I don't think Jerry was using that much in 90, at least didn't appear near as affected as 79-86 and 92 on.
3) I think 89-91 were the last real solid years for the band.

Last, like I said I agree about that 70 run but does anyone else find 70 to be a sloppy year in terms of out of tune and missed notes?

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 6, 2008 10:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

Damn! There you go--just like MidSun with that musical knowledge shit! That really pisses me off! I don't know what notes are supposed to me in the Eleven, but I think there are 11 of them, and that is good enough for me!

JK. But, seriously, to my lame ass ear, I can find odd sounding strums and ind notes in most any show, I think, but have never been bothered enough to recognize that there are more in some yrs than others.

Do you think it's because of the higher number of acoustic shows? Are those the songs you are thinking of? I am sure they, the mistakes, are more apparent there--at least for a dolt like me...

But when I listen to the notes Jerry puts in the last five min of DS or the beg of StSt or CCS jam in 9-19, I think he was doing something right note production wise (again, for all I know, you and MS could tell me he actually was hitting the "wrong" notes...but just like porn, I can't define it, but I know it when I see it).

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 6, 2008 11:06am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

hey Tell. No I'm talking their electric stuff. Not St Stephen or Dark Stars but other stuff. Like even High Time there are some brutal flat notes hit in that tune quite a few times. I've just come across it more than other years I think

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 6, 2008 12:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

Ah--I hear you on that. Interesting. It's almost as if (total speculation here) that it IS for the tunes that are new, Work/Beaut types (I recognize EXACTLY what you are speaking of) when they do them ELECTRICALLY. Perhaps the standard blues numbers (PP, Hurtsmetoo, etc) were straight forward, but these were different? Nah, since the bluegrassjugband bkgrd should have prep'd them for these too...

I dunno...will think on it while listening...Were they just working too hard that yr? Jerry needed a new drug but they weren't as available yet?

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Poster: johnnyonthespot Date: Dec 6, 2008 12:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

I suspect it might have just been growing pains. Early 71 is kinda sluggish to me too

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 6, 2008 1:07pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

seriously, the simplest way to dissect is to slice it between the relationship of the "interval" between any 2 given notes...which is either consonant or dissonant

at one time, all music was made up entirely of consonant intervals, it is suspected that the tritone interval was the first introduction of "diabolus" in serious western music
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tritone

next time you're at a piano, ask someone to show you the notes B and F, play them together, then resolve them to the notes C and E played together...a dissonance resolving into a consonance...makes total sense to our ears now, not all that long ago it was considered evil

but what if 2 or more dissonant intervals are resolved into another form that is also a dissonance by nature, in turn resolved into...

take it a few steps further and explore concepts of poly-tonality, where the "tonal center" is obscured between 2 or more "bases", or atonality, where the concept of tonal center completly vanishes, leaving no point of reference...

getting back to your inquiry, ya, you could call it a wrong note if it is a note played out of "context"...Jer singing the melody of the verse while playing the form of the Brokedown Palace intro can't lead to anywhere good

having said that, one could alter the context to allow the offending note a chance...a liberal amount of conviction is sometimes helpful (sometimes not)


can the boys play a wrong note during a deep Space? all the music thoery i can blow out my ass ain't gonna convince me one way or the other on that one

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 6, 2008 2:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

Thanks, MS--although while reading that at times I almost thought it might be "work" (har, har).

Seriously, though, I see your primary (? my take anyway) point, which as a writer (okay, not good like Rob, but it is what I do to an extent), I have learned from some of the well respected ones that as long as you KNOW you are breaking the rules it is often OK. Rules are there to provide structure, and logic, but often doing something different, if it is done "on purpose" is what "art" can be about (I noticed that in your other post, so don't think I am not keeping tabs on how far ahead of me you are on the artsey fartsey richter scale...JK; I am never going to let you off the hook for that "what would WTell do?" comment...).

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 6, 2008 3:17pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

too funny...

"rules" in as far as they will provide clear parameters to the known borders of a chosen context...i prefer the word "descriptions", for the sole purpose of internal and external communication whenever the question "what am i doing here?" rears it's ugly head

interesting to note the concepts of consonance and
dissonance are firmly rooted in absolute science
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(music)



listening to Wayne Shorter's recent quartet on tv the other week, i wasn't sure if these dudes were following a set of chord changes...more like horizontal lines having their own identity and characteristics interacting with other horizontal lines with lives of their own (sound familiar?)
afterwards someone could draw a vertical line through the score at any given point in time and call it a "chord"...hindsight at best


anyways, the wwwtd movement is dead as a doornail ever since you pissed on the faintly glowing embers of my ridiculously naive (but nonetheless well intended) "congrats fellow human beings" gesture...wwcpwd now owns that halo

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 6, 2008 4:14pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

Excellent! CPW is just our man. Somehow I think of cheech and chong everytime he posts (hope he doesn't read this, and though he is much better looking--hold it right there!--his early days pics somehow remind me of that duo doing the "Dave's not here" bit...).

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 7, 2008 7:32am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

I was watching the Jonas Brothers on The Tonight Show a week ago and for a minute was impressed, these new teen idols (up for Best New Artist Grammy) were actually playing their own instruments...

and then the camera pulled back and you could see a back-up trio on guitars and bass standing in the shadows.

The latest studio tech and even live mixing of the top acts now has smoothed out any wrinkles, and flat or bent notes are rare as hen's teeth.
But there's so many nets, if they're on a tightrope does it matter if they fall flat?

The soundboard mixer just slides the pre-recorded click track up and softens what they're actually playing, unless one of the players actually hits the correct note...
in which case the mixer pushes the live track for that instrument up.
At least that's what I've been told how it's done for top acts onstage now, by Cyril Jordan.
He may be right, as crazy as it sounds.

isn't that what's great about live Dead - that they hit "wrong" notes and kept on going?

Listen to the Lovely Sour Distortion throughout the high energy "Morning Dew" from the Carousel BallroomPhotobucket1/17/1968

Notes were made to be squished, not perfected.

Avoid tame, colorless, hesitating, non-committal language.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 7, 2008 8:38am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

That's a keeper, CPW:

"But there's so many nets, if they're on a tightrope does it matter if they fall flat?"

And, glad that C&C ref didn't offend...

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 7, 2008 12:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

even worse, rack mounted modules to "correct" the pitch of voices, or for that matter, any instrument

individual expression sacrificed for the sake of near absolute equal temperament...as much of a donnaphobe i am, i wouldn't wish it upon anyone

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 7, 2008 2:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

the ultimate idol super girl group (if all parties were alive & well):

Donna (No question. The whole deal wouldn't be complete w/o Donna anymore than the Grateful Dead could have played w/o her for all those years!)

Linda McCartney (The under-appreciated, unsung and underrated underbelly of the post-Beatles Paul period, when Macca replaced Lennon with Linda's unbelievable abilities.)

Serena (Samantha's sexy cousin on Bewitched. Quentin Tarantino, when he hosted Saturday Night Live, proclaimed to be "the single greatest moment in television history": Serena’s rendition of "I’ll Blow You a Kiss in the Wind" in the episode "Serena Stops the Show." )

Samantha (temp. fill-in for Serena but unable to perform together) (The "If'n Song" was her less than golden moment.)

We'll need a producer - leader - mentor -vocal coach for the group.
Mrs. Miller even in her prime would have had a bit too much seniority, so the choice is obvious:

Mrs. Howell (who performed so well with Ginger and Marianne on Gilligan's Island singing "You Need Us"... better in fact than her younger castaway cohorts!)

Attachment: gar-see-ya_.bmp
Attachment: pilzer1.jpg
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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 7, 2008 4:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

i think you're puttin me on about the first two (?)

don't remember Serena...seriously, is she worth keeping my eyes and ears open for?

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 7, 2008 5:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

here it is midnight http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3cFkXSgfjg enjoy!!!

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Poster: cream-puff-war Date: Dec 7, 2008 8:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

That's cool that you looked Serena up and posted the link -
I hadn't thought of searching on youtube, after coming up empty handed earlier today trying to find Natalie Merchant and 10000 Maniacs performing "Like The Weather" on SNL...

they must have that clip sealed up in Ft. Knox behind more doors than CONTROL has for Get Smart!

Here's another sexy Serena bit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih33oDNem1s&fmt=18

mirror link to above clip

here's a Bewitched clip that might get a chuckle from those who recall the Dead's "Touch Of Gray" promo video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWyGA5QP4mg&fmt=18

alternate youtube link

Julie Newmar (Catwoman) could be in the group if Donna bows out;-) and Edith Bunker could provide the high harmonies!

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 7, 2008 8:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Road Trips Vol 2; CLIFF would die of happiness...

no problem cream puff war been following your recon for a few years now !! in the light of the great spirit !! peace!! and thanks!! your the early day man!! with great advice on these early shows!! i'm on that bus!!! dont stop that train!!! :) tye dye snowmen in the east!!! :)

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Dec 7, 2008 6:28am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Breaking the rules

Hey, WT - interesting discussion you were having there with midnight - sorry I wasn't around to join in at the time.

Just as a kind of post scriptum I think my views on the subject chime largely with your own. To my mind, in order to break the rules effectively you first have to learn the rules, whether it be knowing how to construct a coherent sentence or discovering the right places to put your fingers to make the notes you want. Of course it is possible to break the rules without knowing that they exist but that just comes out of ignorance and naivety - the result may be accidentally pleasing but it doesn't have the same worth as something deliberately fashioned by someone who memorised the rulebook and then threw it out the window anyway. Case in point, one J.J. Garcia, known to the assembled company, who put long long hours of practice into learning scales. He knew you had to put in the spadework if you wanted to set foundations for building (brokedown) palaces on.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 7, 2008 7:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Breaking the rules

Hey Rob--yep, yesterday saw quite the diversity of topics! Was "working" hard (ie, on the computer anyway) so taking breaks every 30 min or so (my rule of thumb) had me visiting the forum and finding everything from "did MDew from 8-6-71 exist as a SBD?" to more on warfare with veblen to art, music and rules with MS! Enjoyed myself thoroughly, and glad to find you see a connection or two yourself there (as I knew you would).

Yeah, for the first 30 yrs I always assumed, as the "story" goes with the boys, that somehow something as complex as the 11 was just a random "improvised jam" that they just happened to do over and over again (that was a clue the story was over simplified, eh?). Then, finding out they actually worked their asses off to achieve such complexity made me think even more highly of the boys...

Hope your change over to winter has not been too dramatic, and that the work front finds you emerging from what I took to be rough patch a short while back...I certainly miss your input around here, so hope it allows for more of that.

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 7, 2008 12:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: tools of the rules

as usual, i glossed over another key element in a thread...i guess i thought it was a given (wrong again)

"as a writer..."

when people tell me they don't want to learn how to read and write music notation, or even understand music theory because their concerned it will ruin their creativity, i ask them if they felt learning to read and write their language is in some way detrimental to their spoken creativity

having said that, all the theory in the world does nothing if it isn't applied to "ear" training every step of the way, scales and exercises alone will not "teach" the fingers to be creative, a mere prerequisite at best



not to worry, just when it appears that serious artistic endeavors have become obsolete, some newb inevitably shows up on the scene, completely surpassing all previous expectations...at times like these i miss the big city with the grande concert halls and those overflowing little jazz clubs...

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 7, 2008 2:15pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: tools of the rules

MS--you keep this up and you are going to join Ashes as one of those "Souls of the Forum" (ie, those that speak to the art and spirit of what we are about here).

Yeah, suppose you are bracing for the long haul about now...it's cloudy and dark today in SDH's backyard if that is any consolation to ya....

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 7, 2008 3:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: tools of the rules

you're probably relieved to know that i'm tapped out on this one William...thanks for the rap, i thought the correlation between tools of writing and tools of music was apt (not that i know the first thing about writing) and didn't get the sense at anytime that we were necessarily at odds with each other's views (?), although "leap-frogging" can sometimes give that impression


not much consolation knowing your outside enviro is similar to my indoor climate (even then, only thanks to R40 ins and triple pane windows) hey, at least i don't pay for my ice

hope you gents have a fine day (that is so cool!)

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Poster: William Tell Date: Dec 7, 2008 4:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: tools of the rules

Hey my friend, know that whatever mistakes I make in posting, which are legion, they don't come between the friendship I like to think we have built here, as strange a relationship as it is, and for what it's worth I consider you one of the few very valued folks I have had the pleasure and honor of coming to know here.

Take care--only six months to go til it lightens up a bit.

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Poster: midnight sun Date: Dec 7, 2008 9:11pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: tools of the rules

:)

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Poster: whirlwind dreamer 65-95 Date: Dec 7, 2008 9:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: tools of the rules

*)

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